Thursday, August 5, 2010

The Cordoba House- Again

So this issue has once again been brought to my attention. Here is a short, probably not-so-sweet, but to the point summary of my position.

I do think it is a bit insensitive of Cordoba to build this so close, especially when they've seen the reaction. However, there are some facts that cannot be disputed. They bought the property, hence they have the right to do whatever they want with it- property rights. They have a religion, and are free to practice it- freedom of religion. They have a right to worship together- freedom of association.

However, I do think one thing needs to be remembered- Cordoba and Imam Rauf did not kill those 3,000 on 9/11. The guys who killed those 3,000 are dead. It's useless to whine about them now. It's over. Can't cry over spilled milk. Yes, what happened was terrible. I condole with the families who lost loved ones- both Muslim and Christian and athiest, and whatever other belief systems may have been represented, because I'm sure the families of those 19 men miss them just as much.

But we also can't forget what has risen out of this. It's killed hundreds of thousands of civilians all over the world. It's divided Americans even more starkly along lines of left and right. It's made Americans so gun-shy they freak over the slightest evidence of a possible terror attack- while the rest of the world laughs at our naive belief that we are the only country that has ever been attacked by a terrorist. We lambast a whole race of people for the actions of 19 men. 19 men attacked us. There are roughly 1.5 billion Muslims on the globe, and the number is rising. You do the math. 19 is such a tiny percentage, I'm pretty sure you'd have to put it in decimals. Even if you put in the couple hundred estimated insurgents involved in al Qaeda, the Taliban, and like groups (and that membership is growing too...I wonder why?), you've still got a small, small percentage. That's like saying that, out of the couple billion Christians in the globe, all of them should be treated with as much disdain as we all treat Westboro Baptist Church. That doesn't make sense, and nor does ostracizing and behaving with such venom towards an entire sect of people.

To summarize- yes, I feel for the families of the 9/11 victims. I do think Cordoba should look into moving this community center/mosque somewhere else. But in the meantime- Constitutionally, they can do whatever they want with the property. And I think, that if this does begin to happen, and happens, we should let it be. Move past it. We're all adults. Osama bin Laden would love nothing more than for us all to jump on Muslims and demand they shut down their mosques. Do you know how much of a PR field-day that would be for him? His recruiting levels would go up immediately! The evil Americans, denying what they profess to believe in, and repressing the poor, beleaguered Muslims. Yes, we may look at that and think that he's misrepresenting the situation...but we know about the media, and we know that's exactly what bin Laden and his ilk will say.

Let's not give him the satisfaction.


The Golden Eagle said...

I completely agree with you.

Teresa said...

If the Housing authority or the New York City government had listened to the concerns of citizens and showed any sensitivity to the 9/11 families whatsoever they would have declared the building which had bits of airplane stuck in it a historical site but they didn't because they don't want to hear the truth as to where this imam is getting the funding from overseas.

You do know that there are a higher number of terrorists overseas and in the U.S. than 19 don't you? There are many Muslims like Hasan who pose as faihful Muslims or moderate Muslims but in actuality pose a real threat to our security (or another nation's securities). Plus, honestly Islam is much more a political ideology than it has ever been a religion. But, as long as there is a question as to where the funding for the mosque is coming from (legitimate or Hamas or another terrorist organization) I would say no deal in building the mosque. There should be a unity center or a faith center which includes all faiths and honors the 9/11 victims. Our government and especially New York City's government has an obligation to ensure that this mosque isn't going to be run by extremists (our enemy) but Mayor Bloomberg is even refusing to make sure that this isn't happening. This would allay many peoples' fears.

There is a visitor center at Pearl Harbor and not some statue or building erected to the Japanese. We must remember what "religion" or political ideology that the 19 9/11 hijackers were following and even if we think that they were perverting their religion, you never know they may have believed that they were following Allah or Muhammed to the letter of the law/faith and that makes a BIG difference in the eyes of 9/11 families, as well as other citizens.

Liberty said...

So we wanted the buildings there declared national monuments...because they had metal shrapnel in them?


Sorry, but I don't see how that makes sense.

This community is not being built because of 9/11. In fact, from what I understand, the process to begin building was in process before 9/11 even occurred. So no one can say that this is in any way because of 9/11. They don't have to let people of other faiths onto their property. Furthermore, I don't think an "inter-faith" center would work on Ground Zero. Muslims would be ostracized in it, I can almost guarantee, because Christians and other Americans are just that much of bigots, despite the fact that Muslims also died on 9/11.

Furthermore, I think it is very important to remember that this community center is NOT being built on Ground Zero. It is not like we're building a monument to the hijackers. It is private property, being used for what the private owners want to use it for- a private worship place that will, in addition, also include something like the Muslim version of a YMCA. If you say we should not allow Muslims to build something near Ground Zero- then, pray tell, what should the "Muslim-Free Zone" be? A mile? Two miles? Three miles? The entirety of the city? The country? The world? Where is far enough?

It comes down to this- the road to repression starts like this. People begin to go against one religion by wanting to infringe upon their freedoms. And it spreads from that religion to another, and from people to people, and then we end up with a dictator and we don't remember how it happened, because, after all, in the beginning, they hadn't been coming for us, so we didn't pay attention.

Teresa said...

"national monuments" You went from historical site to national monuements. What?

You act as if there are NO mosques in the city, like Muslims are being denied any right to worship or freedom of religion whatsoever, when that couldn't be further from the truth.

Here is list:,+NY&cid=4567315578914971214,+NY&cid=2192402536953482999,+NY&cid=5373065203099161285

There are at least 5 mosques located in and around NYC (linked to above).

"This community is not being built because of 9/11. In fact, from what I understand, the process to begin building was in process before 9/11 even occurred. So no one can say that this is in any way because of 9/11." Proof? linkage please?

"They don't have to let people of other faiths onto their property."

"Furthermore, I don't think
an "inter-faith" center would work on Ground Zero. Muslims would be ostracized in it, I can almost guarantee, because Christians and other Americans are just that much of bigots, despite the fact that Muslims also died on 9/11."

I thought that these Muslims wanted to build bridges? Maybe bridges to terrorists in the Middle East so it is easier for them to infiltrate America but certainly this is no way to build bridges with people of other faiths.
How would an "inter-faith" center be anti-Muslim? It would be the most sensible and most sensitive solution and the most respectful approach to honoring people of different faiths.

The imam was lying about owning all the property he needs to build the mosque so now the project is up in the air so...

Okay, so we should just take this imam's word that he isn't a terrorist or doesn't support terrorism, or isn't getting funding from terrorists? Even though, he's overseas right now getting financial support from foreign countries or groups?

Plus, there is no way in heck that opening the mosque on the 10th anniversary of 9/11 isn't a slap in the face to every family member who lost a loved one on 9/11.

Not quite sure if the comment was saved so trying again.

Liberty said...

Oh no. God forbid. The Muslims have five mosques?

Here's something that's a real kicker-
Churches in NYC
Mosques in NYC

You see, I don't see why Christians need that many different churches. It's not like we disagree theologically or anything. It's not as if Catholics and Baptists disagree about the role of Mary and the Saints. It's not like lutherans and baptists disagree on whether or no infant baptism is correct. Oh no. Not at all. We should be content with one or two churches here or there, because that's obviously all we need. Right?

Historical site- national monument. Same thing, really. I'm not sure what, exactly, the opponents of this community center were hoping to get it declared. Apparently, they expected half a block of New York real estate to stay empty forever for the sake of some metal shrapnel. ^.^

So I was incorrect on the Cordoba house thing- they didn't actually buy the property until 2009. However, they still bought the property. It belongs to them, and hence if a person claims to believe in property rights, then they cannot also claim to want to infringe upon their rights as property owners.

Let's see...Imam Rauf is overseas getting money from Muslims for a Muslim center...hmm. I wonder why it is that Christians go overseas sometimes to raise funds for missions. It couldn't possibly be because they share common bonds of faith and hence would be better able to get money from them, now would it?

I do think the 9/11/10 release date is a mistake. is his property. He can do whatever he wants with it. If he wants to open it on Christmas, he can. His prerogative. Also, one can't help but wonder whether, perhaps, Imam Rauf just wants to make a big splash in the media. And...we're letting him do that. There's this principle of child raising- if they are throwing a fit/doing something merely for attention, its usually best just to ignore them. Ithink that principle would work nicely here.

Teresa said...

Yes, and since some of the Muslim sects follow terrorism it should be our government's responsibility (especially after 9/11 and those Muslim terrorists obtaining legitimate pilot's licenses) to make sure with due diligence that this mosque is not just being used as a front for terrorism.

What Christian organization in the U.S. looked for funding outside the U.S? (note I didn't say the reverse)

Liberty said...

I have known several missionaries who have also gone on a semi-deputation outside their countries. I myself, being called to the missions field, might pursue such a course of action if I considered it necessary.

The point is that people are grasping at straws with Imam Rauf. They are so vociferously emotional about this that they can't see straight, and so they attempt to make tenuous connections between Rauf and organizations like Hamas- apparently, one of his partners' former partner in another organization had an uncle who had a partner who was a Hamas agent. Really? That's the best we can come up with?

I agree that efforts should be made to ensure Cordoba isn't a terrorist front. All indications are that it isn't- but of course, all evil terrorist organizations start out like that. Just look at al Qaeda...oh, wait. They started out like that. Oops. Eventually, people are going to have to give it up. Rauf is going to build his community center. That's his right as an American citizen. He has money, he has property, and he can build whatever he wants with it.